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Thread: How to make subtitution chords?

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by aisyi View Post
    D7 = D F# A C
    Cm7 = C Eb G Bb

    cuma ada 1 not yg sama jadi kayaknya sih gak bisa tuh ved..
    Bisa juga kalo mao D7 disub ama F# dim, chord bakal jadi D7b9..
    oh emang ada minimum berapa not biar bisa mengganti suatu cord ya?
    klo disub ama F#dim (F# A C Eb) bisa berarti sebenernya dgn Cmin7 jadi ada 2 nada yg sama yaitu C dan Eb.. berarti D7b9 juga bisa disub ama Cmin7 ya?

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by aisyi View Post
    biasanya dim mesubstitusi dominant bukannya minor..
    nih aku dapet dari wikipedia :

    The diminished seventh chord is often used in place of a dominant 7th chord. In the key of A Major the V chord, E dominant 7th (which is made up the notes E, G#, B, and D) can be substituted with a G# diminished seventh chord (G#, B, D, F). If the diminished seventh chord (G#) is followed by the I chord (A), this creates chromatic root movement, which can add musical interest in a song mainly constructed around the interval of the fourth or fifth.
    kalo menurut penjelasan di atas, cadence V-I bisa diganti dengan VIIdim7-I
    gitu ya???
    apakah semua cadence kalo diganti dengan chord substitusi tersebut jadi lebih enak, atau minimal sama enaknya? atau tergantung lagunya? atau nada2 lagunya juga musti dimodifikasi dikit?
    kalo misalnya chord dominantnya nggak menuju I, bisa gak diganti jadi VIIdim7?

    thanx
    It's not what you play, it's what you don't play


  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by vedy View Post
    oh emang ada minimum berapa not biar bisa mengganti suatu cord ya?
    klo disub ama F#dim (F# A C Eb) bisa berarti sebenernya dgn Cmin7 jadi ada 2 nada yg sama yaitu C dan Eb.. berarti D7b9 juga bisa disub ama Cmin7 ya?
    Coba simak pesan2 berikut..

    How does chord substitution work?

    In two major ways: first, the chord might be close to the original - so it sounds 'mostly' right. If the chord called for is C major (made of C-E-G notes), you might try A minor (A-C-E) or E minor (E-G-B), which each have two of the same notes...

    n the second way, the chord is different from the original, but leads naturally into it. These substitutions are usually for just part of the duration. In the following example, F major is played for two bars in the original progression. You might try C7 for the first bar, and F major for the second bar. The C7 naturally resolves to F, so even if the C7 is a bit of a leap from where you 'should' be in the progression, it leads you right back to the path you were originally on.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Q-lau View Post
    kalo menurut penjelasan di atas, cadence V-I bisa diganti dengan VIIdim7-I
    gitu ya???
    apakah semua cadence kalo diganti dengan chord substitusi tersebut jadi lebih enak, atau minimal sama enaknya? atau tergantung lagunya? atau nada2 lagunya juga musti dimodifikasi dikit?
    kalo misalnya chord dominantnya nggak menuju I, bisa gak diganti jadi VIIdim7?

    thanx
    bisa..krn ntarnya bakal kebentuk V7b9 misalnya G7 diganti dg Bdim7 jadinya G7b9
    masalah enak itu tergantung selera..coba aja..
    Last edited by aisyi; 16-09-2007 at 07:01.

  5. #25
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    chord substitution secret's revealed !!

    ini beberapa cara chord substitusi (jangan bilang2 yg laen ya..)

    #1: Chord extensions . You can always add things to the core notes of a chord - playing C6 instead of C, or G9 instead of G7. Since all of the notes of the original chord are also in the substitution, they retain the original idea of the harmony.
    misalnya : G Em Bm D7 G jadi GMaj7 Em9 Bm7 D13 G6/9

    #2 - Chord simplifications . These are the opposite of extensions - you can use a diminished triad, like Bº (B-D-F) in place of a 7 th chord a major third lower - in this case, G7 (G-B-D-F). That works because the notes of the diminished triad are completely contained in the seventh chord:
    Other simplifications can snag just a portion of the original chord - if D9 (D-F#-A-C-E) is called for, a D triad works... as does Am or F#º. Each of those has three tones out of the original chord's five:

    #3 - Chord suspensions . Suspended chords replace the third with a fourth, and that creates tension that wants to resolve - the fourth wants to move down a half step to the third. Use these for the first half of a chord - use Fsus-F-C or F-Csus-C in place of F-C.

    #4 - Secondary Dominants . You can always use the dominant chord of your target for just part of the original chord's duration. We did this with C7 and F just a little while ago, using a measure of each instead of playing two measures of F. This is called a secondary dominant, which I covered in an earlier article. Secondary dominants actually work for any chord in a progression, not just a dominant chord.

    misalnya : G Em Bm jadinya G B7 Em F#7 Bm

    #5 - Relative majors and minors . If the original chord is minor, the major chord built on the third (C for an Am chord) will work as a chord substitution; if the original is major, the minor based on the sixth will work. In both cases, the substituted chord will have two of the original chord's three tones:

    #6 - Minor chords a third above a major . Like the relative minor (the sixth above a major), this chord will share two tones with the original:
    misalnya : C disubstitusi dg Em

    #7 - Back and fourths you can use a chord of the same type, a fourth higher, for any chord - as long as you make a chord 'sandwich' (original-substitution-original). If the progression goes C-F-G7, you can play C-F-Bb-F-G7.

    #8 - Diminished 7 th chords a third above a dominant chord . Since the simplification of a seventh chord into a diminished triad (substituting B-D-F for G-B-D-F) works, you can combine the simplification and extension to create a new substitution - using Bº7 (1-3-5-bb7, or B-D-F-Ab). The new chord will share three tones with the original.
    misalnnya: G7 disubstitusi Bdim7

    #9 - Dominant 7 th chords a minor third above a dominant chord . This one will share two tones - instead of G7 (G-B-D-F), you'd play Bb7 (Bb-D-F-Ab). You still have two tones in common. I'm showing this chord inverted, so you can more easily see how close they are:

    misalnya : G7 dg Bb7

    #10 - The tritone substitution . A tritone is three whole steps from the original chord. If the original is dominant - a 7 th , 9 th , 11 th , or 13 th chord - you can use any dominant chord that's three whole steps up from the root of the original.

    For example, if the original is G7 (G-B-D-F), a tritone up from G is C# - so you could use C#7, or the enharmonic Db7 instead (Db-F-Ab-C). This works for a couple of reasons... first, the new chord shares two tones with the old one; second (and really cool - one reason this substitution is used so often in jazz!), the new chord will almost always blend into the chords on either side by half steps.

    Let's say the original change is Dm-G7-C. We plug in Db7 instead of G7... and now the roots move chromatically, D-Db-C. You've got one tone in Db that's 'connected' to the chord on each side - F is in the Dm chord, and C is in the C chord - and even the Ab makes for chromatic steps A-Ab-G moving from the Dm chord to the C!

    #11 - m7b5 chords a fifth above in place of a dominant chord . Instead of using G7 (G-B-D-F), you can use Dm7b5 (D-F-Ab-C). Again, you have two common tones from the original chord

    #12 - m7 a fifth higher than a dominant (for part of a change) . This actually turns a V-I progression into ii-V-I, a very common jazz progression. Instead of using G7-C, you can use Dm7-G7-C.

    #13 - Dominant alterations . These start getting tricky... when you have a dominant chord in the chart, you can place b5, #5, b9, or #9 in the chord. It's best to establish the original chord first , then do your substitution. C7-F can become C7-C7b5-F, or C7-C7+-F, or C7-C7b9-F, etc. These work best when the dominant chord is going to resolve down a fifth.

    #14 - Stepping . Most chords can be 'stepped into' chromatically - you can substitute C-Ab7-G7 or A-F#7-G7 for a C-G7 change. You can actually over/under shoot your chord by quite a ways and still step into it, if you treat the change carefully... C-B7-Bb7-A7-Ab7-G7 can be made to work under the right circumstances.

    Although stepping chromatically is the most common of this fairly rare type of substitution, it's not the only choice - altered dominants work well when stepped into by whole steps, as in C-A7#9-G7#9-G7 for a C-G7 change. Unaltered dominants will even work when stepped into by minor thirds - you can use C-Bb7-G7 instead of C-G7.

  6. The Following User Says Thank You to aisyi For This Useful Post:

    yongtos2005 (21-10-2011)

  7. #26
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    wah, keren bgt lessonnya!
    tengkyu, tengkyu!

    Quote Originally Posted by aisyi View Post
    bisa..krn ntarnya bakal kebentuk V7b9 misalnya G7 diganti dg Bdim7 jadinya G7b9
    masalah enak itu tergantung selera..coba aja..
    G7 yg diganti jadi Bdim7, apakah bass-notenya musti tetap di G atau boleh pindah ke B?
    Last edited by Q-lau; 16-09-2007 at 07:14.
    It's not what you play, it's what you don't play


  8. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Q-lau View Post
    G7 yg diganti jadi Bdim7, apakah bass-notenya musti tetap di G atau boleh pindah ke B???
    boleh dua2nya tergantung apa yg kita mau, tapi chord yg terbentuk bakal beda aja ( G7b9 atau B dim 7), coba aja ntar juga ketemu yg kita suka..

  9. #28
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    sumpeh deh gw pengen banget belajar.. tp otak gw gak nyambung ama obrolan kalian.. masih terlalu awam banget nih gw, taunya scale ama chord structure doank.. dari awal deh gw nanya ya.

    Quote Originally Posted by aisyi View Post
    ... Jadi mudahnya katanya chord dibagi 3 besar :tonik, subdominant, dan dominant. sebuah chord dpt mensubstitusi chord yg ada di group yg sama.
    contoh: misalnya C Major scale
    Tonik: Cmaj7,Am7(natural minor dari Cmaj),Em7(secondary minornya)
    SubDominant: Fmaj7,Dmin7(natural minor FMaj)
    Dominant: G7,Bm7b5
    tonik, subdominant, dominant tuh apa sih penjelasannya? maksudnya apa gitu? trus dapet dari mana tuh chord2 yg tonik, subdominant, dan dominant diatas?

    thnx

  10. #29
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    Angry

    Quote Originally Posted by musicman View Post
    sumpeh deh gw pengen banget belajar.. tp otak gw gak nyambung ama obrolan kalian.. masih terlalu awam banget nih gw, taunya scale ama chord structure doank..
    boong banget neh..

    Quote Originally Posted by musicman View Post
    tonik, subdominant, dominant tuh apa sih penjelasannya? maksudnya apa gitu? trus dapet dari mana tuh chord2 yg tonik, subdominant, dan dominant diatas?
    thnx
    In notation, each note or degree of the scale is often designated by a Roman numeral, or, less commonly, solfege:
    Function Roman Numeral Solfege
    Tonic I Do/Ut
    Supertonic II Re
    Mediant III Mi
    Sub-Dominant IV Fa
    Dominant V Sol
    Sub-Mediant VI La
    Leading/Subtonic VII Ti/Si

    Tonic chord : The chord that is based upon the tonic of a key or scale, the I chord.
    Subdominant chord : A chord which uses as its root the subdominant note of a key; the IV chord, the chord based upon the fourth tone of the scale.
    dst...

    As in classical harmony there are 3 main areas: tonic, subdominant and dominant. It can be useful to think of tonic as home, subdominant as away from home and dominant as returning home.

    * Sal, ajarin gue rock dong..

  11. #30
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    sumpeh.. gw gak pernah bo'ong. maklum gw otodidak jd banyak teori yg kelewat ama gw..

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